Why fine dining isn’t fine

This is an audio transcript of the FT Weekend podcast episode: ‘Why fine dining isn’t fine’

Lilah Raptopoulos
If you’ve been watching TV and movies lately, you might be getting a sense that the restaurant industry is in its trouble, or at least it’s in kind of a slump. First there was the film Boiling Point. Then there was the FX show The Bear. But the one that really stands out to me is the recent film, The Menu. It brings us to a fictional world’s best restaurant that’s located on a private island. The Menu is really a satire of the world’s real best restaurants, and that means it has everything you would expect. It has very wealthy diners. It has a chef that’s revered as a king.

Clip from The Menu
Welcome to Hawthorne . . . Here we are family . . . Yes, chef! . . . We harvest. We ferment. We gel . . . They gel? . . . We gel.

Lilah Raptopoulos
But in this one, the diners very quickly realise that their death is also on the tasting menu.

Clip from The Menu
We now offer you a 45-second head start. (Sound of footsteps and heavy breathing) OK. 45 seconds starts now.

Lilah Raptopoulos
I watched The Menu because this big news broke and I was trying to understand it. The news was that Noma, the world’s actual top restaurant, is closing. But why would a place like Noma close? It’s world-famous. It costs up to $1,500 a seat. It’s not like they can’t afford to stay open. We’ve talked about Noma on this show before. It’s in Copenhagen and it’s led by chef René Redzepi, who’s a kind of ill-tempered genius. He’s a founding chef of something called New Nordic Cuisine, which is meant to bring Scandinavian cooking to its purest form, like it’ll put locally foraged sea buckthorn on the menu or elk shot in a forest nearby. Over the last 20 years, Noma has become a template for what it means to run a fine dining restaurant. So when Redzepi announced it was closing, a lot of people were trying to figure out why.

Tim Hayward
The really interesting reaction, I think, with the Noma closure was that I think news editors were really shocked . . . 

Lilah Raptopoulos
Mm-hmm.

Tim Hayward
And so lifestyle editors wanted to comment on it. I don’t think anybody in the industry was remotely surprised.

Lilah Raptopoulos
That’s our restaurant critic, Tim Hayward. He actually has a restaurant and bakery of his own in Cambridge, England. So he’s kind of an outsider and an insider in the business.

Tim Hayward
When your brand is built up as being all about a kind of incredible purity of artistic integrity, about food . . .

Lilah Raptopoulos
Yeah.

Tim Hayward
And everything is so unbelievably, wonderfully cerebral and honest and pure. And you reach a stage where nobody can get to you and nobody can afford to eat there, and the waiting list is full of people who fly in with helicopters . . . 

Lilah Raptopoulos
Right.

Tim Hayward
You’ve created your own monster, which, at which point pretty much everybody will have to say, like, I can’t hold this up anymore.

Lilah Raptopoulos
Right.

Tim Hayward
I don’t want to be turning up every day to make an identical menu for, you know, people I might have trouble justifying morally.

Lilah Raptopoulos
Tim thinks that just like the chef in The Menu, René Redzepi is over it. Which begs the question, what about all these restaurants that have modelled themselves after Noma, the second-tier fine dining places, the ones closer to you that are hoping to get a Michelin star or hoping to keep one? Tim thinks they’re in over their heads, too. And today we spend the whole episode talking with him about it.

Tim Hayward
14 courses is immeasurably stupid to anybody who’s not a Michelin inspector.

[MUSIC PLAYING]

Lilah Raptopoulos
Restaurant bills have never been higher. Inflation and the cost of living crisis are driving prices up. And Tim thinks that fine dining can’t afford to model itself after Noma anymore. The industry needs a different model or the whole thing will collapse. This is FT Weekend. I’m Lilah Raptopoulos.

[MUSIC PLAYING]

Tim, welcome back to the show. It is so nice to have you on.

Tim Hayward
Thank you very much.

Lilah Raptopoulos
I would love to start by asking you how things are going for restaurants in England. Partly because it’s good to set the scene for where you are, but also because I think sometimes we paint the restaurant industry with this like one big brush. And yeah, and so I’m curious kind of what’s going on in London to start maybe.

Tim Hayward
Right. I think the one big brush thing really is quite fascinating. That was actually . . . what was intriguing, I think, for most of us is that when the whole mess of the lockdowns came and the various government initiatives, we were incapable of speaking with any kind of coherent voice.

Lilah Raptopoulos
(Laughter) Right.

Tim Hayward
And that’s because the hospitality industry that everybody talks about, which currently includes everything from a sub, a sandwich truck on the street outside, right, well through to a, to McDonald’s, you know, the sort of the, one of the biggest companies in the world. And I think we then have very, very different elements within the sector.

Lilah Raptopoulos
Yeah.

Tim Hayward
 . . . of the ways different things have responded.

Lilah Raptopoulos
Yeah.

Tim Hayward
There’s a real problem with people effectively just turning away from the industry. So estimates between a third and a half of the people that were in it have gone and they’re not coming back. It’s obviously exacerbated by Brexit in the UK ‘cause many of our staff came from other countries and they’ve now sort of decided not to come back. So, but we really are, we’re hurting for good people.

Lilah Raptopoulos
Right. So there’s staff shortages.

Tim Hayward
Yeah, very much. Very much. We’ve got, as I believe, as I mentioned, everybody does, a cost of living crisis, but that means that the costs of everything for the restaurant have gone up massively. And I think one of the sectors that . . . and I do believe it to be a subdivision that needs sort of talking about separately, is fine dining.

Lilah Raptopoulos
Yeah.

Tim Hayward
You’ll hear me saying that with the best of my English accent can do. I’ve actually putting enormous quotes around it (Lilah laughs) because it’s such a ridiculously loaded term that we’ve said so many big things about. But actually, that part of it is arguably the most financially and in business terms, unsustainable part of all of it.

Lilah Raptopoulos
Mm-hmm.

Tim says another problem is that a lot of these restaurants have started paying more than ever for rent, sometimes over £1mn. Their expenses are high. And they were just about balancing all of it until Covid.

Tim Hayward
And then suddenly the price of everything was jacked up by about 50 per cent.

Lilah Raptopoulos
Right.

Tim Hayward
You can’t find any people . . . 

Lilah Raptopoulos
Right.

Tim Hayward
and the entire potential audience are sitting at home wondering, you know, where the next paycheck’s coming from.

Lilah Raptopoulos
Right.

Tim Hayward
So it’s an awful, awful, perfect storm for that part, that sector, that small part of a very large industry.

Lilah Raptopoulos
Yeah. Yeah. OK. So I’m gonna ask you about sort of like this, like upper gilded tier of this industry. Let’s address some news.

Tim Hayward
Yeah.

Lilah Raptopoulos
So Noma, announced that it was closing its doors about a month ago. I think it’s fair to say that people, at least food journalists, are in a state of soul-searching about like the state of fine dining.

Tim Hayward
Yeah.

Lilah Raptopoulos
We’ve talked about Noma on the show before, but can you give us a quick rundown of like what it is and why this news is important?

Tim Hayward
Well it’s, I mean, it’s the top restaurant in the world by pretty much any metric and has been for years. It took over the position that had previously been occupied by El Bulli, which was Ferran Adrià’s place where, you know, you couldn’t get a table legendarily for a sort of six-year waiting list. And his was the same, I think, he was less about molecular gastronomy and more about hyper regional and foraging and things like that, that later became sort of more cool. But he kind of led the whole pack. There were some sort of early controversies around the fact that the way restaurants like that runs, so many people want to work there that they were using large numbers of stagiaires, unpaid interns effectively . . . 

Lilah Raptopoulos
Right. Right.

Tim Hayward
 . . . Running most of the restaurant on that basis. And we’d often, people had said once they start to clamp down on that, that’s gonna really put them into a into a bad spot. Equally, I think, in London particularly, basically if anybody who’s writing about food, has just stopped bothering to say that somebody once worked at Noma. Because literally everybody did. I think my mum did a stage at Noma at one point (Lilah laughs), I mean it’s, that, it’s that mundane.

Lilah Raptopoulos
Yeah.

Tim Hayward
But that was quite a huge thing.

Lilah Raptopoulos
Mm-hmm. I mean, if you’re at that echelon and you’re sort of one of the most influential, probably the most influential restaurant in the world and the best restaurant in the world, you don’t close because it doesn’t make sense financially. You don’t close because of a financial problem. Do you think that he just, like, didn’t wanna keep doing it?

Tim Hayward
I think he’s been quite careful in his releases to say that he found it unsustainable. And morally unsustainable.

Lilah Raptopoulos
Right.

Tim Hayward
And I don’t think he specified what he meant on sustainability. I don’t think he was specific about the fact that he couldn’t afford it, because there will always be people who can afford it. I think it’s precisely that.

Lilah Raptopoulos
Yeah. If anything, I think he said it wasn’t financial.

Tim Hayward
Yeah, I think that it’s precisely that, I guess almost a moral conflict, which is, yes, it’s going to continue to be affordable by richer and richer and richer and less and less relatable people.

Lilah Raptopoulos
Yeah.

Tim Hayward
And perhaps that’s not a position you want to be in.

Lilah Raptopoulos
Yeah. Yeah.

Let me pause here to say Noma finally announced that it would stop using free stagiaires last October. Tim says this isn’t the reason Noma’s closing, but the fact that it was ever an issue, it’s something to think about. Even a restaurant at that level was cutting costs on interns.

Tim Hayward
I think that the Noma thing was inevitable and it’s kind of, it’s an interesting figurehead to hang the argument around.

Lilah Raptopoulos
Yeah. The wrong, did you say the wrong figurehead?

Tim Hayward
It’s, I think, it’s kind of a figurehead. I don’t think it’s right or wrong. It’s just that: the most important restaurant in the world is closing because it finds itself so physically and morally unsustainable. And that, I find is . . . that’s a good thing to hang on. That makes us ask the right sort of questions.

Lilah Raptopoulos
Right, right, right, right.

The reason we care about Noma in the context of the global restaurant industry is because it’s expensive to run a restaurant the way René Redzepi does. It takes a lot of labour to go out and forage those sea buckthorn berries and to ferment miso out of local peas and to have enough waitstaff to anticipate a diner’s every need. And since Noma sparked a generation of restaurants that are trying to emulate it, you could actually say that it’s popularised not just a food or a method, but it’s popularised running a restaurant in a very expensive way. But if you aren’t one of the top restaurants in the world, you can’t afford that right now. You’ve got to pay that million-pound rent and now you’re foraging local berries and fermenting stuff to stay competitive when really you just need to make ends meet.

Just to define terms, when we say fine dining, what do we mean? Like there’s Noma and then what’s below that and what’s below that?

Tim Hayward
I think fine dining in the sense that most of us . . . (Sigh) Predicting the death of it, well, people have been doing that for years. And there’s no fear because there will be . . . There will be expensive, good, high-quality dining across the world as long as people are cooking and there are people with money,

Lilah Raptopoulos
Right.

Tim Hayward
Those two things will come together. And there’s nothing wrong with that in any way whatsoever.

Lilah Raptopoulos
Right.

Tim Hayward
There’s a model of fine dining that’s around control and circumscription of the diners’ experience. It’s very much about the chef, a single individual artist. Instead of going in to experience the hospitality of a venue, you’re going to see the performance of an individual.

Lilah Raptopoulos
Right.

Tim Hayward
It’s much more like having, you know, I’m gonna go and have a private concert with Madonna, rather than, Madonna’s in front of me making a bacon bap. (Laughter)

Lilah Raptopoulos
Right. Which would be the best experience of my life.

Tim Hayward
Wouldn’t it just, wouldn’t it just. It would be, I don’t know. It’s become performative.

Lilah Raptopoulos
Yeah. Is there, are you able to give examples? Would you be willing to give an example of that?

Tim Hayward
Of a performative place?

Lilah Raptopoulos
Yeah.

Tim Hayward
Actually, no. I wouldn’t. And this is an interesting point for a while now. Personally, I can afford to do so. But when I go to restaurants and I can’t really write a good or positive review, I often leave the restaurant, tear up the bill and don’t claim it because it seems the fair thing to do. It’s my industry. I like it. Everyone is trying to keep alive and keep afloat. But I’ve just torn up too many for 14-course tasting menus.

Lilah Raptopoulos
Right.

Tim Hayward
And it’s just, it’s warped, what’s going on.

Lilah Raptopoulos
Yeah.

Tim Hayward
But I was able to actually get around it at one point by writing a review that was based on the visits to four different restaurants that were so bloody close to each other, it didn’t even matter. You know, and it was the same experience I guarantee you would have got if you go to eight more restaurants in the UK in different parts of the country.

Lilah Raptopoulos
Right. And the difference between tasting menus and fine dining. I mean, last time you were on, you said that tasting menus are like first week of first term at art college in terms of any kind of intellectual or emotional expression. (Laughter)

Tim Hayward
Yeah, they totally are. Yeah. It is that thing where you turn up and they and they give you your drawing tools, your paint palette, your darkroom (Lilah laughs) and you go off, you take all your clothes off and go in to the corner of a student set, taking pictures of yourself. And it’s just, yeah, it’s just first year. It’s sophomoric. And I think it, when it starts delivering itself to you, you know, in small towns out in the sticks. And not that that should in any way stop you being, you know, a great cook but to apply a very rigorous idiom over the surface of what you’re doing can only be counterproductive.

Lilah Raptopoulos
Right.

Here are some things that Tim thinks these fine-dining restaurants are getting wrong. Besides being obsessed with tasting menus, the first is using tricks to justify the cost of the menu.

I’m finding there are a lot of tasting menus in New York that still sort of rely on things that feel quite old-fashioned now, like foie gras and caviar and . . . an oyster.

Tim Hayward
Well, this is . . . Yes, this is part of the financial issue we’ve got, which is still you’ve got to justify the high ticket.

Lilah Raptopoulos
Right.

Tim Hayward
There’s a greater conflict in this. Quite a lot of UK restaurants at the moment are doing very, very deep sustainability, like recovering vegetable peelings and zero-waste kitchens. And it’s really weird when you find yourself going through one course where they’ve boiled all the leftovers, they’ve fermented them, they turn them into a garam or something like that, which will then be poured over something and they’ll say, “This was made entirely of our own kitchen waste and has cost absolutely nothing apart from the work of 25 stagiaires!” And then three seconds later there’ll be a lobster tail (Lilah laughs) with foie gras up the middle.

Lilah Raptopoulos
Another mistake these restaurants make is they rely too much on narrative. The menu needs a story and the chef needs a story. It especially annoys him when that narrative is out to make a chef sound noble, like they’re cooking a $75 dish somehow in honour of hospital nurses. There is deconstruction, like a restaurant will take apart a dish to remind you what it’s made of. The menus are full of gimmicks.

OK, so this makes sense of, you know, as a business, that means that they’re using ingredients that are expensive to make us feel that . . .

Tim Hayward
To justify it . . .

Lilah Raptopoulos
Yeah, to justify the cost that we have. And we know, oohhh caviar — that’s expensive. Oohhh, langoustines.

Tim Hayward
Yeah, exactly that. Yeah.

Lilah Raptopoulos
Then they need a bigger staff. They need better management. They need sort of like a hospitality energy. Everything sort of has to be perfect. So I can see how the, as a business that might be unsustainable at these sort of lower-than-Noma levels.

Tim Hayward
Yes, that’s precisely it.

Lilah Raptopoulos
Yeah.

Tim Hayward
It’s jacked up. And I wrote another piece recently about the real danger of very young restaurateurs getting into this. And I think that the metaphor I used is they should really, you know, like an animal gnaws off its own foot to escape the trap.

Lilah Raptopoulos
Right.

Tim Hayward
They really need to do this. Because these guys are coming out of culinary school with promise, or they’re coming out of a TV show they’ve been on, and backers will say, no, no, we’ve got enough money here to invest in you. To get the million-pound space in the middle of London. But it’s gonna have to be full every night and it’s gonna have to get Michelin stars, because once you’re in this game and you get the star, that is a multiplier.

Lilah Raptopoulos
Yeah.

Tim Hayward
So it’s kind of a gamble on the staff.

Lilah Raptopoulos
Right. And they might not be ready.

Tim Hayward
It’s worse! It’s kind of terrifying. They’ve got staff standing around or they’ve, you know, they’ve had to change an item on the menu because you can’t buy it singly. And they’ve only got three people in that night.

Lilah Raptopoulos
Right.

Tim Hayward
And you get to the end of it and you’re . . . I know why I’m paying £300 because I can see all the people there (Lilah laughs) who have to be paid. And I know how much it costs to launder a napkin. And I know how expensive these handmade tables were. All of this crockery and cutlery you’ve had designed and made in a small studio somewhere in the middle of nowhere. And I don’t begrudge giving you this because I think it’s the fair price. In fact, it’s often too low a price for what it is we’re actually getting.

Lilah Raptopoulos
Yeah, that’s so interesting.

Tim Hayward
But at the same time, it’s just too much. It’s just stupid because it’s just your tea.

Lilah Raptopoulos
Right. And that’s sort of, we’ll get into what would be a better way for them. But that seems unique to this time in that, like, we’re creating sort of like young stars out of chefs that are brands.

Tim Hayward
Yes. And we’re pushing them into, there’s some very interesting questions around business modelling at the moment, because I think when you just get to a point whereby you’ve got financial backers who aren’t in the kitchen with you.

Lilah Raptopoulos
Right.

Tim Hayward
They need a business plan.

Lilah Raptopoulos
Right.

Tim Hayward
To tell them what they’re gonna get for their investment at various points down the line. And the minute you start getting into that, that’s where the trap begins.

Lilah Raptopoulos
Right.

Tim Hayward
But if you think about all of the great three-star restaurants in the world, they all started when, you know, the head chef and the head waitress fell in love (Lilah laughs) and quit the restaurant they were working at, and went and opened a really small place on the edge of town. And they set up. People came. They worried about whether they could put the price up a little bit and they did. And people didn’t stop coming. Few more people came. They changed the menu a bit. They moved up. You know, by the time they’ve been doing it for 20 years, they’ve got a Michelin star. They’ve got a really nice menu. They’re changing things all the time. That’s a model whereby you can get to the end of that. You can put a lot of expensive tablecloths down and say, actually, you know, if people do want to fly here in their helicopters, they’re more than welcome to do so, and that feels justified.

Lilah Raptopoulos
Yeah. Yeah. You build up to it. So, OK. Tim, in your recent column, you advocate, as you just said, that restaurateurs go back to this simpler way of running things, at least in the beginning.

Tim Hayward
I don’t feel I’m advocating. I’m really seeing it happening.

Lilah Raptopoulos
Yeah.

Tim Hayward
I guess half a dozen places are on my board at the moment where, so, a bit of background information. In the UK, we obviously have lots and lots and lots of pubs and the pub often has upstairs rooms and these rooms, people are finding these rooms and putting great restaurants in them.

Lilah Raptopoulos
Yeah. Right.

Tim Hayward
I’ve seen some quite old chefs (laughter) sort of closing up their million-pound-a-year-rent restaurants and going, “No, that’s fine. I’m gonna open a pub in the country or I’m gonna take over a pub in the middle of a city that nobody else wants.”

Lilah Raptopoulos
And those restaurants are putting out good food, better food?

Tim Hayward
Well, it’s still great cooks making great food, putting it out at a price that customers can afford.

Lilah Raptopoulos
Right.

Tim Hayward
There’s no sort of prevailing model imposed over it. There’s no idiom in which they’ve got to deliver. There’s nobody saying, ‘This will only work really in the business plan if you get a Michelin star.’

Lilah Raptopoulos
Yeah. And there’s also sort of like a, I don’t know how sustainable this is, but there’s sort of like a pop-up culture.

Tim Hayward
Oh, vast. Vast pop-up culture.

Lilah Raptopoulos
Right.

Tim Hayward
Because I think what’s happening now is nobody wants to take the risk of doing it without it being a pop-up.

Lilah Raptopoulos
Right.

Tim Hayward
Gosh, did you know, in the last, probably the last half dozen reviews I’ve done, now I think about it, there’s been some kind of slightly snide comment: “This feels a bit like a pop-up.” (Lilah laughs) And of course it does! It is what they’re doing. God, you’ve spotted that. Not me.

Lilah Raptopoulos
There we go. (Laughter) We’re doing it together, Tim.

Tim Hayward
That’s really irritating. (Laughter) Sorry. That’s not irritating. That’s really collaborative.

Lilah Raptopoulos
Here we go. It’s collaborative. We’re here together.

Tim Hayward
You’re absolutely right. You know, and places that you know, they’re there for the duration, but they’ve got that kind of, you know, we’re gonna grow gently like we’re . . . I went to a place recently, one of the two backers and owners of it, and a chap my age was actually out on the floor, you know, dealing hash off the wrist. He was putting out of place and probably some of it he probably hasn’t done in three decades ‘cause he’s been behind a desk running successful restaurants.

Lilah Raptopoulos
Yeah.

Tim Hayward
So I think that people are putting that stuff back into it and realising the value of that. That’s exciting.

Lilah Raptopoulos
Yeah. Yeah, it is. Do you . . . Tim, I’m curious. One of my last questions is just in your mind, and for you, what makes a restaurant good? And I know we’re talking about from a taco truck up to Noma here, and that there are different ways to measure goodness or quality at different levels. But what is it for you?

Tim Hayward
For me, it’s hospitality. And sometimes, particularly in talking to English people, you have to sort of explain that. (Laughter) I mean, for many cultures, it’s ingrained. It’s kind of a religious and cultural fundamental, that if somebody’s outside your door and they require food, shelter, sustenance, anything at all, it’s your religious duty to do that for that person. We kind of don’t have that in Northern Europe, which is a bit of a shame, but that’s where the magic comes in. When you go into a place and they greet you at whatever level, whatever kind of place it is, from the crummiest to the richest, they reach you with a sort of level look in their eyes that says, OK, you’re in my hands now. While you’re in my hands, I’m gonna make sure everything’s as lovely for you as I can possibly make it. Is that OK with you? And you go, Yeah, that’s OK with me. And then the amount of money that changes hands, that’s fine. Negotiable. No problem. The quality of the food that’s delivered — you know what? We can live. It’s fine, you know. But actually, I’ve come in for the evening, and I go home thinking those people really looked after me. That was wonderful.

Lilah Raptopoulos
Right.

Tim Hayward
And that’s it. That’s what you want.

Lilah Raptopoulos
Wow. I’m really surprised that you didn’t say the quality of the food! (Laughter)

Tim Hayward
No. It’s . . . It is so true. I just, I’ve got a review coming out next week of a place — I must have driven past it on the way to the airport to go and judge other restaurants in other countries a thousand times. I never noticed it. It’s an old 1930s transport café, what you’d probably call a truck stop. The design is to feed drivers 24 hours a day. And I went in and it was magical and the people were lovely and it was great. And the food was utterly average, (Lilah laughs) which is exactly what you expect of a truckers’ fry breakfast.

Lilah Raptopoulos
And what you wanted. Yeah.

Tim Hayward
Yeah. Hell, if I’d gone in there and somebody piped avocado purée around the outside of the plate, (Lilah laughs) I’d have worried.

Lilah Raptopoulos
Yeah.

Tim Hayward
But no, no, no. It was a greasy sausage and a couple of eggs, and it was great.

Lilah Raptopoulos
Yeah.

Tim Hayward
It was. That was lovely. Yeah. Hospitality with a small h not the capital H, the business. I mean the little-h hospitality, that’s good.

Lilah Raptopoulos
Yeah. OK, Tim, let’s see what happens. Please come back. And it’s been such a delight!

Tim Hayward
(Laughter) Absolute pleasure. Anytime!

Lilah Raptopoulos
Ok! Thank you.

Tim Hayward
Meet you soon!

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Lilah Raptopoulos
That’s the show this week. Thank you for listening to FT Weekend, the podcast from the Financial Times. We’ve put a bunch of Tim’s columns on this topic in the show notes. He has been talking about all the ideas we discussed today for a while now. Also in the show notes is a link to a special discount for an FT subscription that is also at FT.com/weekendpodcast. Next week we are speaking with the artist Nick Cave. He has a retrospective at the Guggenheim in New York, and I just really admire his work. It explores racism and police violence. And it’s also vibrant and beautiful. It’s many things at once. Then my colleague Nilanjana Roy comes on to teach us what makes a perfect book club and how to start one.

One request: if you like the show, we would be super grateful if you could give us a rating and review on Apple Podcasts. I know you hear this on all of your podcasts, but it really truly helps people find us and means a lot to us. Write us anytime at FTWeekendPodcast@FT.com. The show is on Twitter @FTWeekendPod and I am on Instagram and Twitter at @lilahrap. I post a lot about the show on my Instagram.

I am Lilah Raptopoulos and here is my talented team. Katya Kumkova is our senior producer. Lulu Smyth is our producer. Molly Nugent is our contributing producer. Our sound engineers are Breen Turner and Sam Giovinco, with original music by Metaphor Music. Topher Forhecz is our executive producer, and our head of audio is Cheryl Brumley. Have a wonderful weekend and we’ll find each other again next week.

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