Transcript: Office therapy — your work problems solved

This is an audio transcript of the Working It podcast episode: ‘Office therapy: your work problems solved’

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Jonathan Black
Well, I think it’s those problems that people don’t really know where else to go to. You don’t want to go to HR because it all becomes very messy and I’d love to hear about those sorts of areas because they can really affect people’s entire lives.

Isabel Berwick
Hello and welcome to a new kind of Working It episode.

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We do our best on this show to shed light on the world of work. I’ve talked about productivity problems, how to schmooze your bosses and the death of the Friday evening pint. Now I want to tackle your workplace problems head on and I’ve teamed up with my friend and colleague Jonathan Black to do it. Jonathan, who you heard at the top of the show, is the director of the careers service at the University of Oxford and the author of the Dear Jonathan career advice column in the FT. Between us, we think we can help you with your workplace woes. We’ve opened an online voicemail where you can send your career dilemmas for us to solve on the show. You don’t need to leave any details if you don’t want to. But either way, we’re here to help. In this episode, we’ll talk about dealing with micromanagers, how to cope with a new younger colleague being paid more than you, and how to ask your boss if you can work abroad indefinitely. Let’s get started. Jonathan, welcome.

Jonathan Black
Great to be here as ever with you, Isabel.

Isabel Berwick
Right. Let’s get started on our first workplace problem.

Advice-Seeker 1
I’ve been with my employer for two years and we have a new recruit in our team who’s the same age as me. Despite the fact they have less experience and no academic qualifications, they’ll be in a management role and paid more than me. I perform well, I’ve had reasonable pay progression and I’ve never had an issue doing late nights. How do I address the fact I’ve been overlooked by management without seeming petty?

Isabel Berwick
Well, honestly, you know, you’d have to be a saint not to feel aggrieved by this, wouldn’t you, Jonathan?

Jonathan Black
I agree. And you can just hear the person going home at night and saying to friends, partners, whatever, you know, these people. This person’s been brought in and what have they got that I haven’t and what’s happened? And is it just favouritism or whatever it may be? Can we just pick up that last word? There’s nothing petty about looking after your own career. Let’s not minimise this issue. The issue, though, is you do have very asymmetric information. You know all about you and what you’ve done. In fact, you’ve laid it out for us here. But you don’t know what this other person has done and you don’t know what management was looking for.

Isabel Berwick
So essentially in questions like this where something, let’s say, mysterious to you has happened, we look into the void. We look into the information gap, essentially. That’s quite a hard thing to do. But I see why you’re saying that.

Jonathan Black
I mean, it could be a bit of a challenging question to the manager to say, I’m just interested. How did they get the job? What do they bring, what skills, therefore should I go out and get? I think there are two other things going on. I think there’s a phenomenon, though, that when we get hired into an organisation, we’re hired at that position and it’s very difficult for people to see you in a higher role or a different role at all. It’s the challenge that internal candidates always have when they’re applying for senior, more senior roles. But we saw you as this person. What are you doing applying for a management role? That’s why often you have to move to another organisation.

Isabel Berwick
Is it also partly to do with our human desire for novelty, do you think? You know, the new thing, the shiny thing is always better than the existing thing.

Jonathan Black
Because we know all about the existing thing, we know all about their . . . 

Isabel Berwick
You know, perhaps they don’t make the tea properly or they don’t buy their round, you know what I mean?

Jonathan Black
Not boiled enough.

Isabel Berwick
Something really petty might be holding them back and it’s not something that you can articulate. The new person will come in with their flaws, but we don’t know their flaws, do we? I mean, it happens again and again and again, doesn’t it?

Jonathan Black
It does. And they bring in the new person. And of course, it is that shiny and new.

Isabel Berwick
I mean, you can’t get over the shiny and new if you’re not the shiny, new thing. But I suppose you can try to, as you’ve explained, try to get them to see you in a different light. But that may be insurmountable.

Jonathan Black
It may be. It’s very difficult. I mean, whenever internal candidates go for interviews, certainly with us, I will always say, pretend you don’t know us. And actually I may not know everything you do and assume I don’t know everything you do.

Isabel Berwick
So that’s good. Go to it fresh.

Jonathan Black
Yes. And it doesn’t matter if you tell me stuff you think I know, but I’ve got. Assume we don’t know you.

Isabel Berwick
Oh, that’s really interesting. That’s like the advice to refresh your relationship, isn’t it? By, you know, when you go to a bar and pretend you don’t know each other. (Laughter) Sorry. That might be inappropriate. 

Jonathan Black
No. OK. Yes, that’s quite good. You know, I like that. So it is about . . . 

Isabel Berwick
It’s about, yeah, making something old into something new.

Jonathan Black
Yes. And have people see you in a new light. So you might come back with new skills or new qualifications that you’ve got. But often, I certainly, I remember when I, my first company I worked at, there was a joke going around that to get promoted you had to leave and come back two years later and you would always come in as much higher level.

Isabel Berwick
This boomerang thing is really happening a lot now, isn’t it? Yeah. No, or maybe this person does have to leave, but at least they’re addressing the question. And as you say, it’s not petty. I mean, I’d be pretty annoyed if that happened to me. Frankly, I think we all would, wouldn’t we?

Jonathan Black
But don’t waste the energy on resentment, because you can’t do anything about that. They’ve been there two years. That’s pretty respectable in their 20s. You’ve got a job. Focus on doing your own job. Don’t worry about the rest of it. And the other bit of your energy is on finding a different job.

Isabel Berwick
OK. Let’s pick up on resentment, because actually when we read these problems, of which we get many, there’s a lot of resentment at the heart of almost all of them, isn’t there? Have you got any tips for overcoming resentment? I mean, it’s easier said than done, frankly, isn’t it, Jonathan?

Jonathan Black
It is. And you can stoke the fires of resentment by just continually talking about it, bearding people in the pub until your best friend tells you to, OK, like, that’s enough.

Isabel Berwick
I completely agree. Right. Let’s go to the next question.

Advice-Seeker 2
I’ve worked in financial markets for about 35 years. I work for a fund I helped build from scratch, but I wanna see out my final few years working remotely overseas. How should I sell this to my employer and my team? I’d work just as hard and be just as dynamic, but at the same time feel more driven and creative with a fresh context away from the UK.

Isabel Berwick
That is from a man in his fifties, which I think is relevant.

Jonathan Black
I think that is, although I’m quite intrigued that in their fifties he’s already thinking my final few years. I mean, there are plenty of pieces out there now saying it’s bad for your mental health to retire, ever. So it may not be a final few years. It may be quite a lot of few years.

Isabel Berwick
And this person’s obviously very driven. And actually, it’s interesting they’re using the phrase, you know, I’ll be more driven and creative. Perhaps they feel a bit stale. But is it about the physical location or is it something deeper than that? I mean, obviously we’re reading into it, but I think there’s something quite interesting there.

Jonathan Black
So wanting a change, which is always a good thing to do. And if you can get the change not in your work but in some other part of your life. So people buy second homes or they get allotments or they take on some volunteering or some board roles, of course, to scratch that particular itch about needing a change. Maybe this is one of them, of working away.

Isabel Berwick
I suppose we don’t know how committed this employer is to remote . . . 

Jonathan Black
Well . . . 

Isabel Berwick
And overseas work. It sounds like not very, if they’re asking us for their advice.

Jonathan Black
And let’s back right up. You’ve got the right to ask to work away, but the employer doesn’t have to give it to you if it’s not gonna fit. But you can, you don’t have to work for that employer. You might have to go to another employer who’s more flexible. There’s plenty of websites that will tell you this company likes one day a week, two days a week, whatever. But bear in mind, it’s not your right.

Isabel Berwick
No.

Jonathan Black
So, yes. Now we’ve got to sell it to your manager why you want to do it. What’s in it for them? I’m also a bit surprised that they’re managing a team and they propose never to be with them. That doesn’t sound good. Personally, I think we’re all human beings and social animals, and we need to be in the same room at times, maybe a day a fortnight, a day a month. I think if he can say, well, I’m going to live generally away, but I’ll be in like 10 per cent, 20 per cent, then that might be more acceptable, one week in four or something. And I know you’ve covered this in Working It. There’s an element of presenteeism.

Isabel Berwick
Mm-hmm.

Jonathan Black
But if you’re around, people remember you and somehow you get the project and you get remembered and you get the interesting work. And just frankly, it’s more fun. So it’s not all or nothing. Some flexibility. Maybe this employer will be good, but I think they better be ready to offer some flexibility.

Isabel Berwick
Yeah. And it’s also about whether the priority is to move abroad or working remotely or whether the priority is to just make a change. You know, if moving overseas is actually what they want to do above all things, they, as you say, they may have to change jobs or do something differently because . . . 

Jonathan Black
Become a consultant.

Isabel Berwick
Become a consultant.

Jonathan Black
Yeah, but abroad brings you all those lovely challenges of perhaps foreign languages and certainly foreign cultures, different ways of working. You bump into different social networks. You could sell some positives there.

Isabel Berwick
Kind of a bit of an iceberg issue, that one, I think. There’s a lot of moving parts. But I mean, I’m interested in the compromises perhaps where the answer sits.

Jonathan Black
And I don’t think the pendulum’s finished swinging yet.

Isabel Berwick
No.

Jonathan Black
Two years ago, we all thought, this is great. We can all work from home forever. And now it’s swinging back the other way and it won’t settle.

Isabel Berwick
Right.

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It’s time for our final question.

Advice-Seeker 3
I have a manager who does not support my professional development. I asked other senior managers for feedback and based on what they told me, I spent my own time and money on professional training and activities to improve my soft skills. When my manager heard about this, she started giving me negative performance reviews saying I’m not focused, even though she didn’t have examples. What can I do?

Isabel Berwick
Jonathan.

Jonathan Black
Unsupportive managers are tricky. I mean, they take against you for unclear reasons. They might not even realise why they’re taking against you. It sounds to me that this manager’s feeling the person’s not being loyal or committed enough. It feels like there’s a certain possessiveness going on here.

Isabel Berwick
Yes, and it’s not about their work at all, is it?

Jonathan Black
It doesn’t sound it. And it’s also, well, it’s a very Theory X view of the world that staff must be 100 per cent locked in to the organisation.

Isabel Berwick
Oh, tell us what Theory X is.

Jonathan Black
Well, there’s Theory X and Theory Y, and Theory X is originally about we just measure inputs and we put you on the clock and begin to measure that. Theory Y is much more progressive, which is what we would like people to be. Theory Y — trust people, measure the output, not the input.

What I think we’ve got going on here is a person and a manager who is thinking this employee is not dedicating 100 per cent of their time. Therefore, there’s something going wrong here, which is of course going to have the reverse effect to what the manager wants. Because now the employee who’s asked this question is going to feel even less motivated. It’s perhaps a paradox for people who aren’t used to it to actually let go of it.

Isabel Berwick
Well, that’s the problem, is it? We can’t control other people. The manager is insecure. I would say that this person is doing absolutely everything to put themselves on a path to getting another job.

Jonathan Black
Yeah, but they may not want to go to another job just yet. While they’re working for that other job, the person will have a meeting with the manager, maybe have HR or a third party there, but just to reaffirm, first of all, reaffirm their loyalty to the organisation and say look, but I do want to progress my career and wouldn’t it be great if you could support me and help me do that because it would reflect well on you?

So it’s again, it’s putting yourself in the manager’s position, who is obviously feeling threatened. And be sympathetic to them, try to get away from this adversarial discussion with them.

Isabel Berwick
That’s a very good point because there is something very adversarial built into this, I think. And also the fact that the manager wasn’t giving examples of how the employee wasn’t focused, it would be useful to drill down on to that because that’s the pinch point, isn’t it, that they don’t have examples. It’s actually it’s a feeling, not a do. It’s not . . . there’s no concrete evidence here.

Jonathan Black
Right. So let’s reverse the feeling and say, no, no, I do. I am loyal, and I do want to make this work. But realistically, I’m young, I want to stay in the organisation. Wouldn’t it be great if you could support me and help me and it would reflect well on you? I mean, this is the classic managing upwards of explaining to your manager a progressive and inspirational way to behave.

Isabel Berwick
So you’ve been amazing and I just can’t wait for you to support me.

Jonathan Black
And actually, I’d like your advice on the sorts of things I could go for.

Isabel Berwick
People love having their advice, don’t they?

Jonathan Black
Yeah. So rather than going down this rather adversarial route, because that way leads to disaster . . . 

Isabel Berwick
Yes.

Jonathan Black
And on both sides, we get into complaints and we don’t want that. We want to smooth this over, reflect that we’re human beings and think about the other person. What’s going to motivate them to help you.

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Isabel Berwick
Jonathan, we want our listeners to submit their problems. Could you give them a steer and let them know what kind of issues you really want to help with?

Jonathan Black
Well, I think it’s those problems that people don’t really know where else to go to. So, for example, bullying at work, toxic cultures, generally feeling unfulfilled. The stuff that you don’t want to go to HR because it all becomes very messy and you end up in a formal process, which can take years. But there are ways through that. So I’d love to hear about those sorts of areas because they can really affect people’s entire lives.

Isabel Berwick
Thank you so much for coming in today. I really appreciate it.

Jonathan Black
Thank you for having me.

Isabel Berwick
I’m sure some of you out there have problems like that. Remember, you can submit them using the link or URL in the episode description. You can also send an email to isabel.berwick@ft.com. Please do send in your questions and we’ll get them answered. See you next time.

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This episode of Working It was produced by Mischa Frankl-Duval and mixed by Simon Panayi. The executive producer is Manuela Saragosa and Cheryl Brumley is the FT’s global head of audio. Thanks for listening.

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