This is an audio transcript of the Working It podcast episode: Sport’s leadership lessons: Machismo or real skills?

Jeremy Snape
Well, I think ultimately from my own experience, I played cricket for England in front of 120,000 people. And, you know, we’ve had lots of strategy sessions and flip-chart paper full of diagrams and strategies on what we hope to do. But I think in some of the situations like this massive game in India, I got hijacked by the emotion. I wasn’t beaten because I couldn’t play the delivery that got bowled at me, but because I was already worried about what the press were gonna say the next day if I failed. But I think anyone that heard of siren flashing behind them on the motorway and stood up at a conference to deliver a speech or been asked to present to the board or an important investor meeting, they’ll know that the fight and flight response is strong and alive in them. And elite sport stars have to manage themselves before in their mind, and their mind wandering and catastrophising before they can manage the situation and their performance. And I think that’s something we all have to do when we get into those high-stakes performances in our lives.

[MUSIC PLAYING]

Isabel Berwick
That’s Jeremy Snape, a former England cricketer turned leadership consultant. After leaving the world of sport behind, Jeremy gained a masters degree in psychology, and he went on to found Sporting Edge. It’s a consultancy that teaches leaders how to get ahead using a sports mindset. Today, on Working It, with me, Isabel Berwick, I want to find out if I, a middle-aged journalist who can just about run 5K, can improve my performance, relationships and productivity by thinking like a sports star. Sports and business have been linguistically linked for the best part of a century, with phrases like “go for gold”, “close of play”, “eye on the ball”, “par for the course”, “touch base”, or this very British-sounding phrase “that one’s a bit of a sticky wicket”. So why does sport resonate with people and emerge in unlikely places like the office?

Jeremy Snape
I think sports are just so prevalent, isn’t it? It’s always in the news. It’s highly emotive. Lots of people can relate to that competitive drive that either they’ve got at the moment or they had in their youth. And I think the statistical transparency, the media frenzy that surrounds sport, the emotional contagion around sport just makes it a fascinating case study. You know, there’s lots of rational data around and graphs, but seeing a Premier League football manager jumping up and down or seeing tears on the podium tends to evoke a different level of insight.

[SPORTS FANS CHEERING IN THE BACKGROUND]

Isabel Berwick
I’m joined in the studio by Lionel Barber, who was editor of the FT and therefore my ultimate boss for 15 years. He’s now a broadcaster and writer and he’s always been a keen sports fan. Welcome, Lionel.

Lionel Barber
Good to be here, Isabel.

Isabel Berwick
So in that last clip, Jeremy Snape was talking about the particular insights we get from watching sporting professionals. What do you think is that insight? Can we bottle it?

Lionel Barber
Oh, yes. No question. Because sport, in my view — and I used to play fairly serious rugby, cricket and actually some boxing — is about focus. It’s about discipline. It is about winning. But there’s also a lot which goes into winning, and particularly if you play those team sports, team spirit. So I think if you start to work around those things — focus, collective mission, spirit, winning — you can build something. But you do have to be careful. I remember when I talked about the strength of the FT bench, Lucy Kellaway said to me, “This is not a football club, Lionel; it’s the FT”.

Isabel Berwick
(Laughter) So Lionel I was especially keen to have you on the podcast because I know you think business leaders or any of us can learn a lot from sports, and I might even be so bold as to suggest, as you’ve just said, that you incorporated some of those insights into your management style here at the FT. So just for managers who are listening, what are some important insights we can take away?

Lionel Barber
One of the first is the importance of communication. The sense of direction from the captain, from the leader, and how you communicate is very, very important. And I would say it’s not just about applying the whip hand; it’s also understanding the people that you’ve got in your team. I think the second point is something I always told myself at cricket, which is if you want to be a good batsman, you have to understand what your weaknesses are. So you don’t try and play shots that you’re not ready to do. So for me, translating that into journalism was about get the core right, the first things, and then you can build on that. And I suppose the last and most important point is understand what a team is, that you’re not just in charge. If you’ve got some really good, strong people around you, the overall team will be better.

[MUSIC PLAYING]

Isabel Berwick
I think those are all excellent points. And in fact, I talked to Jeremy about some of the tips he teaches. And one of the most important or useful he thinks is developing coping mechanisms for stressful situations.

Jeremy Snape
Elite performers pressure-test themselves, and entrepreneurs would do exactly the same, you know. “What if” scenarios. What if my laptop breaks when I get on stage? What if some of the board members that I’m presenting to are virtual and online? How do I almost pre-empt some of those situations that could be quite stressful and derailing at the time? I mean, ultimately confidence is preparedness, so we need the athletes on the start line to feel like they’re 100 per cent ready to perform. So partly that comes from having a rational appraisal of what’s in front of them. This isn’t the biggest day ever. This is another race, and they’ve got to perform at their best. So that rational thinking around the challenge. And then we also need to look back at our coping resources and our evidence, our bank account of confidence, if you like, where we can go back into past pitches, past public speeches and say, “I did really well there”. Let me stay close to those past successes and my personal strengths. And those are the kind of things on both sides of the equation. One is what we see the challenge as and one’s what we see our coping resources as. And when those things are both rational and balanced, then we get confidence. But often when we get into high-stress environments or a new job or somebody asks us to present to the board or whatever it might be, we tend to catastrophise that this is the biggest thing ever and we’re gonna get judged and shamed by being exposed to that environment. So I think part of it is that ability to understand that you’re going into a novel, an uncertain environment, but to trust yourself and trust your skills, and that allows you to stay in the moment with your execution. So for a sports star, that could be a breathing routine and a focus on the shots that you’re gonna play in the next 30 seconds. But for somebody standing up in a sort of nervous environment in the workplace, that could be exactly the same. Stopping your mind wondering about what could happen if you make a mistake in the boardroom: you’re gonna get sacked, you’re gonna lose your job, you’re gonna have to sell your home, you’re gonna have to move countries because of the shame. You know our brain cascades very quickly away. But the winning mindset is all about staying in the moment, staying in control and delivering your very best performance, and that’s not always gonna help you to win but it’s important that you retain control psychologically before you can control your performance.

Lionel Barber
I liked a different phrase that Jeremy used just then, which was “staying in the moment”. And I remember as a public speaker, the first time I really gave a speech was to the US Air Force Academy in Capitol Hill in 1987. Somebody had heard me speak on public radio and thought I had a decent voice. And, Isabel, I dribbled to an end around 14 minutes. And this Air Force colonel said, “Is that it?” (Isabel laughs) And I said, “I think I need to go to have some coaching”. And over the years, I had a lot of coaching, including well into the forties before I became editor and I always found myself learning and becoming not arrogant, but in that moment, confident about what I was saying, refining the message so it was then second nature. So I think Jeremy’s really got a point there. You just have to be a bit humble and understand that you need to be trained and you can always be better.

[MUSIC PLAYING]

Isabel Berwick
So historically, sportspeople haven’t always had the most modern or empathetic management style. So Sir Alex Ferguson, a famous British football manager, published a book about leadership, but he’s famous for his explosive temper. Do we really want to be replicating this kind of machismo? I talked to Jeremy about that.

Jeremy Snape
Well, my research with Sporting Edge, I’ve interviewed a hundred world-class thinkers, and that goes from Harvard professors, London Business School professors, neuroscientists, ballerinas, lots of female thought leaders from around the world. And I’m not at all suggesting that this sort of bullying old-school football manager approach is correct. I would also say that knowing Sir Alex Ferguson, that that isn’t all true. He was also renowned on the inner circle for incredible warmth, writing personalised letters to people and a side that you often don’t hear in that media stereotype. So I think to be as successful as he’s been, I think he would struggle to have a one-dimensional style of leadership. But I do think there’s been a shift away from a command-and-control style of leadership — in all sectors actually, not just in sport. And I think that this ability to flex your leadership style and almost tap into the intrinsic motivation of different people, almost like a performance detective, you try to understand what’s gonna help this individual. Do they need, you know, a firm word or do they need more questioning or do they need more confidence and encouragement? They are the real skills of the leader. And to be able to do that with a diverse group of performers in your team and to do that over time because, you know, a successful series of sales or a few wins in sport, they change the motivational climate in the team. So for me, this sort of detective approach to leadership I think is absolutely critical and especially in hybrid work. And we’re moving from a controlling, micromanaging style to this trusting autonomy that we need to give and empowering people to be focused towards the same shared goal. So we need to be very clear on what the goals and expectations are, but we need to let them interpret when they do the work, how they do the work, who they do the work with, and measuring people much more on outputs rather than micromanaging it in their particular behaviour.

[SPORTS FANS CHANTING]

Isabel Berwick
So, Lionel, I know you’ve interviewed Alex Ferguson, I think on more than one occasion. And I know you admire his leadership style. What did you learn from him?

Lionel Barber
Well, I never threw a football boot at anyone at the FT.

Isabel Berwick
Did you not? (Laughter)

Lionel Barber
Oh, well, I was tempted once or twice. But I think I learnt so much from him. He was an extraordinary manager as you know. Twenty-six years in charge at Manchester United. Didn’t get the succession right, by the way, which is an important point about leadership, but he was a really fine communicator. Yes, there was a little bit of fear around him. I don’t think that’s a terrible thing for a leader as long as it’s controlled. I love that line about the personal touch. I used to send personal emails to people all the time to encourage. But what I learnt from him was, and I don’t want to sound too tough here, but he did know when stars were almost over the hill, so he changed. He actually managed to change an elite team several times in order to maintain the highest standards, and that’s very important.

Isabel Berwick
So managing the big egos is actually a very delicate thing, I would imagine.

Lionel Barber
Well, we had our David Beckhams at the FT, no question.

Isabel Berwick
But didn’t look like David Beckham, though.

Lionel Barber
They were nowhere near as handsome. But I know I think there’s a very important point about . . . Sir Alex was an inspiration and you don’t endure for that length of time without being a really good leader. And his books are very good on this. One other point: one of my predecessors, a very distinguished editor, Sir Geoffrey Owen, was in fact an elite sportsman. He played at Wimbledon. He played actually Ken Rosewall, the great Australian tennis player at Wimbledon. But Geoff had a completely different style. He was quiet, but he did a brilliant job at recruiting talent and retaining talent. And that’s a very important part of being an effective leader.

Isabel Berwick
Yeah. I’m just gonna remind you of something you wrote in an interview with Andrew Strauss, who was once an England cricket team captain: “I’m an opening batsman turned national newspaper editor whose task is to motivate talent and manage large egos”. So even back then, I think it was 2008.

Lionel Barber
Well, I remember that interchange actually with Andrew Strauss and being struck by how confident he was that they were going to retain the Ashes and be the best team in the world. And he again was quietly impressive. Look, I must say, for me, but it is what works for me and I would . . . there is no way that I would say it has to translate into other people, but I think that a leader has to have a little bit of swagger and being an opening batsman, flashing blade, etc, facing the new ball. But yes, I don’t hide the swagger.

Isabel Berwick
No. (Laughter) But I think sport is often used as a shorthand among colleagues. As you say, it’s a very easy way to get to know people on one level, but it can be quite a male preserve. Is that something that you think is changing? I mean, certainly internally here at the FT it’s changing. But how can we make sport more inclusive? There are takeaways for everyone, I think.

Lionel Barber
Well, there was a particular type of sick-as-a-parrot, over-the-moon type football manager, which you start using that kind of lingo. It’s terrible. But I do think that it’s important and I’ve been privileged to meet some elite women athletes who are fantastic leaders. I mean, you think of Martina Navratilova, for example. And they may use slightly different language, but they would certainly apply sporting technique to management and leadership. So I don’t think it should be seen as a male preserve. What I do think is that Jeremy is right, that the leadership style, the management techniques have been refined and you don’t need to have that hard-edged, you know, winning-at-all-costs, slightly jargony approach. And that’s right; it should evolve.

Isabel Berwick
So some of the things that have moved in the workplace perhaps more quickly than in society are perhaps feeding back into sports management. It’s becoming much more professionalised, isn’t it?

Lionel Barber
Well, certainly on the use of data. But if you’re playing elite sport — rugby, cricket — there’s no hiding that it’s a very tough sport. And you can see some of the athletes who’ve said, frankly, you know, 25 years old, tennis stars, “It’s enough, I can’t take it!”. So that coping mechanism, dealing with stress, I think that probably is a bigger part of management and managing the workplace. I mean in the old days when I started in Scotland, you could see that little hand going into the drawer at four o’clock, quick swig of whisky before filing. I mean, that kind of thing went on at a certain newspaper in Scotland.

Isabel Berwick
Yes, that never goes on anymore at the FT. So, we can summarise. There are few simple things every manager can learn, and things like grit, preparation. So I do think there is something we can all learn. But our colleague Andrew Hill wrote a really arresting column, I think probably a long time ago now, where he said there’s no comparison between managing a football team and managing a corporate because of the sprawling nature of corporates. And in fact, our colleague Simon Kuper wrote an article, which I’ll put in the show notes, saying why aren’t politicians more like elite football teams? So there’s the people who are very much on the sports management analogy and people who think it doesn’t have much application in the wider world. I mean, corporates are huge and sprawling.

Lionel Barber
I think Andrew’s column is obviously spot on in many ways and one shouldn’t see sports as being the only lodestar in terms of management and leadership. The one where I challenge him is in an organisation. If you’re gonna be really successful and I’d like to think that the FT was successful when I was editor — still is — is that having that what I used to call it “the cabinet”, but having four or five people around you who you really trust and you just let them do it and let them go forward and manage. And that applies to larger companies.

Isabel Berwick
So we need to bring it back to teamwork all the time . . . 

Lionel Barber
I think teamwork is absolutely essential. And you have to understand as a manager, it wasn’t just the inner cabinet or the cabinet, but there were people who were doing rea- . . . all, everybody was doing an important job. But if you made it clear and showed that you were interested in people way down the ladder and also helping them move up and preparing them for leadership positions, then you’re gonna have a much healthier organisation.

[SPORTS FANS CHEERING]

Isabel Berwick
I’m gonna be honest, I came into this episode sceptical because I’m not a big sports fan and I find endless recourse to sports analogies quite male. But honestly, I think what Jeremy said and what Lionel said makes sense. You know, that detective approach to leadership, finding out what everyone in your team needs, their individual make-up, what motivates them. You know, if you think in that way as a team or as a leader of a team, it makes perfect sense and it’s actually very simple to execute. So there’s a lot of really useful takeaways from this episode, I think.

[SPORTS FANS CHEERING]

[MUSIC PLAYING]

Isabel Berwick
Thanks to Jeremy Snape and Lionel Barber for this episode. And please do get in touch with us, we want to hear from you. And we’re at workingit@ft.com or with me @IsabelBerwick on Twitter. If you’re enjoying the podcast, we’d really appreciate it if you left us a rating and review on Apple Podcasts. And if you’re an FT subscriber, please sign up for our new Working It newsletter. We’ve got behind-the-scenes extras from the podcast and some exclusive Work and Careers stories you won’t see anywhere else. Sign up at FT.com/newsletters. Working It is produced by Novel for the Financial Times. Thanks to the producer Anna Sinfield, executive producer Joe Wheeler and mix from Chris O’Shaughnessy. From the FT, we have editorial direction from Renée Kaplan and Manuela Saragosa and production support from Persis Love. Thanks for listening.

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