David Lammy on Britain’s place in the world

This is an audio transcript of the Rachman Review podcast episode: ‘David Lammy on Britain’s place in the world’

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Gideon Rachman
Hello and welcome to the Rachman Review. I’m Gideon Rachman, chief foreign affairs commentator of the Financial Times. This week’s podcast is about the future of British foreign policy and how things might change under a Labour government. My guest is David Lammy, Britain’s shadow foreign secretary. With an election due next year and the Labour party well ahead in the polls, he’s actively preparing for office. We met in Singapore over the weekend at the Shangri-La Dialogue, which is the main forum for discussion of security in the Indo-Pacific. The weekend was dominated by some sharp exchanges between the American and Chinese defence secretaries. So with tensions rising in Asia and war raging in Ukraine, how should Britain position itself in a dangerous world?

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If you roamed the corridors of the Shangri-La Hotel during the security dialogue, one issue dominated. It wasn’t Ukraine; it was the possibility of a war between the US and China. In his comments to the conference, Lloyd Austin, the US defence secretary, sought to calm the atmosphere.

Lloyd Austin
Conflict is neither imminent or inevitable. Deterrence is strong today and it’s our job to keep it that way. You know, the whole world has a stake in maintaining peace and stability in the Taiwan Strait.

Gideon Rachman
Of course, saying that a war is not imminent or inevitable is very different from saying that it’s inconceivable. In his own speech to the forum, China’s defence minister, General Li Shangfu, emphasised that China wants peace. Who doesn’t? But he also argued that it’s China’s historic mission to take over Taiwan, the independently governed island that it claims is an indispensable part of the People’s Republic of China. The general condemned the United States and he lambasted the Democratic Progressive party, the DPP, which runs Taiwan for allegedly leading the Taiwanese people away from the Chinese motherland. The general emphasised that China is prepared to go to war over Taiwan.

Li Shangfu, via interpreter
If anyone dares to separate Taiwan from China, the Chinese military will not hesitate for a second. We will fear no opponents and resolutely safeguard national sovereignty and territorial integrity regardless of any cost.

Gideon Rachman
Both David Lammy and I were in the audience for those speeches. Afterwards, we sat down to talk about what we’d heard. Some commentators talk about the storm clouds of war gathering over Asia. On this occasion, there was an actual tropical storm going on outside, and I hope you find that the sound of thunder in the background and the rain hammering against the windows is atmospheric rather than distracting. I started by asking David Lammy about what we’d just heard. How worried should we be?

David Lammy
I do think these are dangerous times. I do think you just have to read the speech of China’s defence minister to recognise the robustness of China’s approach to Taiwan that seemed to depart frankly from the established status quo.

Gideon Rachman
Because they say they’re reinforcing the status quo.

David Lammy
I thought it was surprising to hear him call out the DPP in a political party in Taiwan. And I thought also that his attitude to the Taiwan Strait effectively as an extension of China is in contradiction to the perceptions of, say, a country like the Philippines or indeed Japan. That is the truth of it. So there’s no doubt about it, these are dangerous times, which is why dialogue — the need for China to be able to answer the phone and to avoid escalation — I think I leave concerned about that.

Gideon Rachman
Yeah. And so how much of a concern should that be for us in Britain? Because there will be people who say, look, it’s the other side of the world, it may not be great, but it’s not necessarily our concern.

David Lammy
I mean, you ask me the prospects of war and the prospects of a hot war. Everybody here, everybody in the global community recognises that would be catastrophic for the global community. We’re all living through a massive inflationary crisis and cost of living crisis. We’re certainly living through that in the UK and part of that flows from war in Ukraine. Conflict with China would eclipse that and make things considerably worse for people all over the planet.

There’s a second thing and some people talk about a new cold war. Well, this isn’t a new cold war because in the cold war, effectively the west and the Soviet Union were decoupled and China was decoupled. And what you learned when you were in south-east Asia is that our economies are hugely intertwined, because here in the Pacific, countries recognise their important trading relationship with the United States, but they’re growing an important trading relationship with China as well. So because this region represents so much of the world’s GDP, because Europe has important ties here — we in the UK certainly do, historic ties — for all of those reasons, we have to avoid mis-steps, miscalculations, misunderstandings. I also noted, despite the rhetoric on Taiwan and the rules-based order, that the defence minister from China mentioned in his speech “peace” more times. I can’t remember quite how many times it was, but if you go through them nearly in every single paragraph, he mentions that word, because he too must realise . . . 

Gideon Rachman
He also said . . . 

David Lammy
The dangers of war.

Gideon Rachman
He also said a war would be catastrophic, I think.

David Lammy
Yes.

Gideon Rachman
But around lots of things, which sounded like, you know, they were prepared to fight when he also said we won’t ever renounce force. Do you get to go to China? Have you ever been?

David Lammy
I haven’t been, in this role. Look, I think that engagement is important, and therefore, I thought it was good that our defence secretary, Ben Wallace, met with him. I saw that the deputy prime minister of Australia also met with China’s defence minister. That is important, notwithstanding the problems that exist with the United States.

Gideon Rachman
Yeah. And you know, if you’re foreign secretary in 18 months’ time or whatever it is, could the world expect any change in British policy to this part of the world, or would you see continuity?

David Lammy
Look, I don’t want to be partisan unnecessarily, but if you look back on this government’s relationship with China, it has been far from consistent. It’s extraordinary that just seven years ago, David Cameron was describing the UK’s relationship with China as a golden age. I think most people will find it unbelievable that the United Kingdom under Theresa May was close to China and the Chinese Communist party effectively controlling our nuclear industry. And I think there has been changing rhetoric even in recent years between Boris Johnson, Liz Truss and Rishi Sunak on China. We in the Labour party welcomed the government’s recent integrated review because in a way they landed in the position that we have been prosecuting over this period of time. So I think that we will be clear-eyed. I’ve said that the three things underpin our attitude to China, that is that we will challenge where we disagree and on issues like Hong Kong, the treatment of minority and human rights in China there are big disagreements, but we will co-operate with China where we need to, of course, on issues like climate, global health. We have a big trading relationship with China and we will compete with China where we have to. And that tells me that this is an era where we de-risk, particularly around important areas that involve our national security.

Gideon Rachman
So, I mean, in the foreign policy refreshed and the strategic review that you just referred to, look quite a lot made of an Indo-Pacific tilt that Britain should be concerned more with this part of the world. Firstly, do you agree with that? And secondly, do you even understand really what it means?

David Lammy
I don’t characterise it as a tilt. And the reason I don’t characterise it as a tilt because I think shortly after the government described it as a tilt, it also talked about tilting towards Latin and South America. The UK’s strategic interests clearly mean we have to be present here in this region. That is why I welcome the fact that we’re a dialogue partner now of Asean countries and broadly I welcome the fact that we have joined the CPTPP, which I think will be important for UK interests and indeed the . . . 

Gideon Rachman
That’s the new trade deal.

David Lammy
The new trading bloc here, particularly in the Indo-Pacific, that I think will be important both to UK interests and indeed, hearing from partners in the region, their interests here in south-east Asia. So systemically, given that this represents 50 per cent of growth by 2030, this is important. The other area of importance, of course, is Aukus and our historic relationship with Australia and the US and I think that is also important for regional stability in the area.

Gideon Rachman
Yeah, because some people and certainly the Chinese saw Aukus as a bellicose move — you know, they denounce it at every opportunity they can — and even if one doesn’t buy that, it does I think bring us back to the question of, well, you know, if this conflict that we all know would be catastrophic but the people talk about a lot if it were to occur, is Britain closer to being actually drawn into a war in the Indo-Pacific? Is it quite close to a commitment to get involved in a conflict over Taiwan, which, as you know, Biden talks about a lot, he said four times that America would fight. Is there any chance that Britain would end up fighting in the war?

David Lammy
It’s not in the interests of my children, my grandchildren and indeed the young people here in the Indo-Pacific to talk up the prospects of war. And in that sense, I agree with Lloyd Austin that war is not imminent or inevitable. There need not be conflict, but to a large extent that will be determined by dialogue, it will be determined by compromise, and look, just yesterday there was an incident in the Taiwan Strait with China. The Philippines has been raising issues with their freedom to move through the Taiwan Strait. The Taiwan Strait represents, I think just in the first half of this year, 50 per cent of the world’s global containers. So this is a hugely important stretch of water. Ninety-five per cent of what we eat and breathe in the UK comes in by ships, many of them which pass through that. We do need to step back, I think, from the aggression that we’re seeing at this time from China.

Gideon Rachman
And nonetheless — I mean, we’re out here so obviously it’s an issue of great global importance — but I assume if you become foreign secretary, the biggest and first dossier on your table has to be Europe, doesn’t it?

David Lammy
Yes. Look, I think that it’s absolutely essential that the UK gets back to its traditional place: trusted in the world, consistent, a country that was instrumental in shoring up the rules-based order and understands and lives by the rule of law. I thought it was extraordinary to hear Ms Truss describe President Macron as an enemy, effectively. It was wrong of the government to renege on the agreement it struck with the European Union just two years later and I think threaten peace in Northern Ireland. If we want China to live by the rules of the sea and the architecture that was drawn up after the second world war, then we have to live by international rules as well. So we’re not gonna be returning to the single market, but it’s hugely important that we have a special relationship with our partners in Europe. In the Labour party, for example, we believe that a defence security pact with the European Union would be a good place to start. It was on the table in our negotiations. It was rejected by Boris Johnson. We want to revisit that.

Gideon Rachman
What would the contents of that be?

David Lammy
Well, the European Union at this point in time are looking at important issues that go beyond the traditional structure of Nato. Cyber resilience. It’s still the case that France and the United Kingdom represent effectively 50 per cent of the UK’s defence and security interests combined. There’s much more that we can build on in the Lancaster Agreement or renewed Lancaster Agreement with our French colleagues. So let us get into that discussion with the European Union. But beyond defence, our European colleagues are raising issues about the decline in European students in British universities. They’re raising issues around our absence from the Horizon scheme, the scientific research scheme. It’s damaging British science and research and innovation prospects in the years ahead. So there’s much that we can work on that I want to get back to working with our European colleagues on, of course.

Gideon Rachman
Yeah. Just though to pick up on that, you said no single market. And I know Keir Starmer wrote, I think, a piece for the Express this week saying that in terms some people, a lot of people, including myself, would be a bit disappointed by that. They would say, look, clearly Brexit’s not been working well and the government’s own economic stats department saying it’s gonna knock 4 per cent off GDP. That’s money we could do with. I mean, why not, given that the polls now show that I think only about 30 per cent of people think we were right to leave the EU, actually put the single market or even renewed EU membership back on the table?

David Lammy
There’s no doubt about it. The Brexit as delivered by the Conservative government has been damaging for the British economy. And when you look at the inflation figures, when you look at our drop in exports with European countries like Germany and France, that is clear. Having said that, there is a realpolitik to the situation we now find ourselves in. The first is that we haven’t even got structured dialogue with the European Union. We are not sitting down with them on an annual, biannual, three-monthly basis to talk about the issues in a structured way that of mutual consent, whether it’s climate, whether it’s artificial intelligence, or whether it’s the nature of our economies. Let us get back to doing. That’s the first thing.

The second thing is that there has been a hostility between the UK and the European Union and bad feeling, if you like; the divorce continued to be prosecuted by this government against the European Union. We have only just got back to mending those fences and effectively put the Northern Ireland protocol to one side with the Windsor framework. There is a review of our trade agreement in 2025. It’s my sincere hope that we are in the lead because Keir Starmer’s in Number 10 and we get to review that trade agreement with our European colleagues in 2025 and seek to build on that trade agreement. And we think, for example, on areas like food, on a veterinary agreement, there’s progress that can be made.

But let me just put this very simply. We had a very, very messy divorce with Europe. It was protracted. It went on for years, much longer I think than it needed to and it was rancorous and bitter. Effectively with the Windsor framework, we’ve only just sorted out responsibility for the children. Whilst there may be many who want to get back into a marriage, you really can’t do that before you even been on your first date. There’s much for our Labour party to do over the next few years to heal and mend those relationships. I think that begins with security and in a sense the way we’ve been able to work with the European Union, with war in Europe is deadly serious and that is why the Labour party has absolutely not sought to be partisan on that issue. But there’s much to do, I think, to attend to our relationship, to get back to a position of trust. And I do think trust had broken down. But also to recognise some of the very real issues and not to plunge Britain back into protracted debate because one of the things that the European Union asked for now and did in Britain is consensus. And indeed in that sense it is the case that the Conservative party as a party are still opposed, of course, to any suggestion of re-entry back into the single market. And of course that would plunge us back into a big and heated debate.

Gideon Rachman
So rather than reopen all the bitter British politics, you’re gonna try to do things a rather lower profile way, just pragmatic.

David Lammy
I think we have to accept the world as it is today. And the first thing is re-establishing trust, is the review of the trade agreement in 2025. That means attending to our relationships, of course, with the European Union but moving on from that position.

Gideon Rachman
And we’ve managed to talk for quite a while, we haven’t actually mentioned the Ukraine war yet, which obviously is a redefining event for Britain and for the whole of Europe. Is there much to say about British policy? Do you think basically we’ve got it right? I mean, Britain has been quite far ahead actually in pushing for aid to Ukraine. Are you happy with that?

David Lammy
I am. And I think that particularly when I talk to countries like Finland, Sweden, the Baltic nations, they are hugely grateful for the bipartisan position that we have struck on Ukraine and our central support for the Ukrainians. It is important that Keir Starmer has been to Ukraine, that I’ve been to Ukraine, that our defence spokesperson John Healey has been to Ukraine, and that we’ve been absolutely clear that both economically, militarily and diplomatically we’ll continue to support them. I am conscious that in 2024 there are elections in the United States and indeed elections in our own country. Indeed, they may end up being in the same month in both countries. Elections can make powers insular. It’s hugely important that the unity that we’ve maintained in our support for Ukraine as they come out of this counter-offensive into 2024 is maintained and that we support them to prevail.

Gideon Rachman
Yeah. I mean, you mentioned the possibility of both Britain and the US having elections in 2024. So let’s say you win and Biden loses and Donald Trump wins. How does a Labour government get on with a second Trump administration? Wouldn’t the special relationship be under enormous strain?

David Lammy
Well, you know, Gideon, I studied in the United States at Harvard. I worked in the United States as a young lawyer and over many years maintained my relationships and friendships in the United States, of course; deep friendships in the Democratic party. That’s well known.

Gideon Rachman
With Obama, indeed.

David Lammy
And my, you know, personal friendship with Barack Obama central to that. But it’s been very, very important. And I now think, I’ve been to the United States. It’ll be my fourth occasion when I go back in September since taking up this role in November 2021. It’s hugely important that I meet also and I have with Republicans. Britain does have a special relationship with the United States, and I think it’s important to recognise that whilst, yes, there has been some sounding off questioning Ukraine in the more conservative nationalist tendencies of the Republican party, there’s broad consensus, if you listen to Mitch McConnell and others, broad consensus in both the Senate and Congress that we have to support the Ukrainians at this time. If you believe in a rules-based order the United States was so important in drawing up, it’s hugely important that we stand by Ukraine. And I think that most Republicans recognise that.

Gideon Rachman
But a second Trump term, he could be a highly unpredictable person. And one of the things we’d say is that the western alliance is not just about interests, it’s about values. Can you really say that you share the same values as Donald Trump?

David Lammy
Look, if you look at the big issues, China, clearly the Donald Trump administration and the Biden administration are broadly in the same place and there is consensus on China. I think also on the key central issue of globalisation and its effects on the poorest in the United States and indeed in a country like ours. There is also consensus the Conservative party here in Britain have not been really interventionist in terms of new industrial policy. They’ve not gripped the opportunities of climate. Actually, there’s a different consensus that’s emerging in the United States on those sorts of issues and the British Labour party is in step with that. So, yes, of course, no doubt about it. Donald Trump is (laughs) is a character that will lead to lots of comment on social media but actually, in terms of the direction of travel in the United States, there is consensus in many ways.

Gideon Rachman
Last couple of issues. As you know, one of the hottest issues in British politics with enormous foreign policy implications, it’s immigration, migration, small boats, all of that. I’m sure you know, the Labour party has condemned a lot of the rhetoric around it. But polls do show that people are concerned about high levels of migration. What do you say to voters that it’s about right the levels? Do you wanna bring it down, bring it up? What’s the position?

David Lammy
Well, the Conservative government have got themselves into a real mess on migration with the extraordinarily high figures when they went into successive elections saying that they would bring those figures down. And we challenged them on that, as we rightly should. You cannot cut our aid budget and then spend what’s left in the UK and not face up to supporting people to stay in-country because of issues of climate and conflict at this time, particularly in the Horn of Africa. When I speak to partner countries like France, I was in Portugal a few weeks ago. They’re raising real concerns in the Sahel and asking how can the UK play a bigger role with us in dealing with these issues in-country?

A lot of the issues that we’re facing in the UK in relation to asylum and refuge comes directly out of the consequence of the way we left the European Union coming out of the Dublin agreement we had with European colleagues where we were able to send people back to European countries if they were the first port of call where they came in or sought refuge. All of those agreements were out of. So there’s lots of contradiction going on currently in UK policy. This is a time of tremendous challenge of migration, not just to the UK through much of the world. We should recognise actually that it’s countries like Greece and Turkey bearing the biggest load and I think recognise also that the contribution that people are able to make to our economy when they move. And indeed Britain has been an outward-looking country with many Brits have moved across the world. But we’re really clear that we need a system that works, with good processing — and we haven’t got that at the moment — with safe passage and safe refuge for those that need it and good routes, but also work with international partners so that we’re sharing the load.

Gideon Rachman
As a last issue, I’d like to ask about the relationship between Britain and empire, which seems to be kind of rising up the agenda in the UK. Do you think that that’s a discussion that we need to have in Britain and does it have foreign policy implications?

David Lammy
The first speech I gave, I think as shadow foreign secretary in parliament was in response to this new imperialism that we’re seeing from Vladimir Putin. And I recall the fact that my ancestors know what it is to face the barrel of a gun. We’re having this conversation here in Singapore. Singapore is a country that feels very generous towards the UK, recognises a colonial past, but actually has been able to work in partnership with the UK going forward. I welcome the fact that our new King has said that he wants to look closely at these issues. I think he’s started a new initiative to examine the royal family’s historic relationship with these issues.

Gideon Rachman
Specifically with slavery, yeah?

David Lammy
With slavery, as I understand it. And of course I know because I’ve got, you know, longstanding roots in the Caribbean, that there is a very real debate going on in the Caribbean about these issues at this time. I still think in the end that the Commonwealth does provide an important forum for countries to come together as equals. I think it’s really interesting that countries like Togo, Gabon, Rwanda are joining that Commonwealth club. even.

Gideon Rachman
Even though they weren’t British colonies.

David Lammy
Even though they weren’t British colonies at this time. And I think Britain is in a unique role to obviously understand the past that’s about colonialism, but actually to stand up for human rights, to stand up for modern multiculturalism, to stand up for countries’ individual sovereignty today because of that past, that centuries ago but we still see happening today in our world.

Gideon Rachman
And do you think the fact that politicians such as yourself or indeed Rishi Sunak, the prime minister with roots in India, in the Caribbean and now represent Britain overseas, can be a source of strength for us?

David Lammy
Well, look, I think that our connections to history are demonstrated by having a prime minister of Indian descent, by having a London mayor of Pakistani-Muslim background, by having a first minister in Scotland of similar background. That is our multicultural heritage. It’s a great asset. We have to be at ease with that in the modern world. And of course, in and around that, there will continue to be a very, very rich and hearty discussion.

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Gideon Rachman
That was David Lammy, Britain’s shadow foreign secretary, ending this edition of the Rachman Review. I’d also like to thank the International Institute for Strategic Studies, which hosts the Shangri-La Dialogue. Thanks for listening and please join me again next week.

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